If small church pastors have a modern patron saint, Eugene Peterson might be it. In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with Peterson’s biographer, Winn Collier about the places where Winn’s book, A Burning in My Bones: The Authorized Biography of Eugene H. Peterson, Translator of The Message, overlaps with Karl's book, De-sizing the Church. They talk about how Winn was entrusted to write Peterson’s authorized bio, why people (especially pastors) are still so fascinated by Peterson’s writings, his life, and the way he pastored. Then they narrow in on how Peterson accurately, but fairly critiqued the church growth movement and our obsession with bigness. Finally, they address several parts of Peterson’s life and ministry that didn’t fit into De-sizing the Church, including: How Peterson’s life connected with people even deeper than his writings did The importance of pastoral presence How Peterson pushed back against our size obsession and the institutionalism of a business-centered approach to church growth The importance of those inefficient hours in a pastor’s life and schedule And more Links: A Burning in My Bones: The Authorized Biography of Eugene H. Peterson, Translator of The Message Working the Angles: The Shape of Pastoral Integrity Karl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

One of the biggest dangers of our obsession with church size is the rise of the Christian celebrity culture. Katelyn Beaty is the author of Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church. Katelyn defines celebrity as “social power without proximity.” In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Katelyn about what that means, why it’s a problem, and why we in the church are so susceptible to the lure of celebrity. There’s also great hope for those who have been led astray by Christian celebrity culture, whether you’re the one following a celebrity, or if you’re the one desiring to be followed. Links: Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church Karl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We have an unhealthy relationship with bigness in the church. Especially in the American church. And it’s killing us. The rate of church closures, departing members, and pastoral burnout is growing exponentially. This is the first episode of a series of podcasts based on Karl Vaters’ new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next. Karl talks about how we became so obsessed with bigness in the church, why it’s dangerous, and what we can do to change course. Look for upcoming De-sizing the Church episodes in which Karl interviews Katelyn Beaty, Scot McKnight, Winn Collier, and more. Karl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Have you ever felt like your church is “less than” because you don’t have a worship experience with the talented musicians you’ve seen in larger churches? According to Teresa Stewart, not only is that not needed for an excellent worship experience, but the small church actually has advantages that are not always available to our big-church friends. In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Teresa Stewart about some of those advantages, including: The Happy Birthday Effect Seeing and adjusting our aesthetic cues Stone Soup planning The value of small-church symbols How to ask better questions about our worship experience And so much more Teresa Stewart is the author of The Small Church Advantage: Seven Powerful Worship Practices that Work Best in Small Settings. Teresa’s approach is simple, practical, and applicable in most small-church settings. She challenges some of the ways we’ve thought about small-church worship, offers viable alternatives, then gives some wonderful step-by-step advice about how to curate worship to be more participatory without letting chaos reign. Links from this Episode: https://www.worshipnerds.com/ Teresa@smallchurch.org    Bonus Chat The Role of Conversation in Small-Church Worship Karl Vaters talks with Teresa Stewart about conversation can be incorporated into the small-church experience. She encourages us to start slow and small. And she helps us curate the experience so it doesn't become a free-for-all. As Teresa wrote in her book, “Conversation in worship is not an anything-goes pursuit. It should serve and deepen the worship. Begin by curating worship in one element of your usual order.” On a very practical level, Teresa talks about the three levels of questions and conversation. Knowing these levels will help you approach this with wisdom and patience, allowing people to participate while maintaining a sense of direction. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ian Borkent is a pastor in the Netherlands who walked through a season of ministry burnout and now helps pastors address this issue in their own lives through the ministry of Grow a Healthy Soul. In this episode we’ll talk about the causes of pastoral burnout, how to avoid it, and how to recruit church members to the task of helping pastors by employing the five-fold ministry gifts. Also, I’ll be sharing some of content of my new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next (coming April 2, 2024) and how our obsession with bigness is a major contributing factor to pastoral burnout, church scandals, and more. Links From This Episode Alan Hirsch APEST test The Church as Movement (book) Grow a Healthy Soul Bonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our YouTube channel) Helping Your Pastor Lead Beyond Burnout Karl Vaters talks with Ian Borkent about how congregation members have a calling to help their pastor, including what pastors can do to let congregation members know they need their help. They also talk about Bunjee Cord Leadership, plus the importance of simply asking for help, and working through the discomfort of not doing everything.   Link: How to Lead and Still Have a Life: The 8 Principles of Less is More Leadership, by H. Dale Burke  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Our brains are the most important, but least understood part of our body. In this episode, Karl Vaters interviews Michel Hendricks about the fascinating place where faith and brain science intersect. Michel is the co-author (with Jim Wilder) of The Other Half of Church: Christian Community, Brain Science, and Overcoming Spiritual Stagnation, which Karl listed as one of his top ten books in 2023. If a conversation about brain science sounds intimidating, it’s not. Both the book and this conversation put the cookies on a low shelf for all of us. Michel is the Director of Life Model Consulting at LifeModelWorks.org where he works with churches and organizations to help bring maturity and the transformation of character back into the center of Christian practice. Links: The Other Half of Church: Christian Community, Brain Science, and Overcoming Spiritual Stagnation Renovated: God, Dallas Willard, and the Church That Transforms The Pandora Problem: Facing Narcissism in Leaders & Ourselves LifeModelWorks.org BONUS MATERIAL The Importance of Joy and Gratitude in Ministry Karl Vaters talks with Michel Hendricks, the co-author (with Jim Wilder) of The Other Half of Church: Christian Community, Brain Science, and Overcoming Spiritual Stagnation about the concept that “God designed our brains to run on joy like a car runs on fuel.” The conversation includes why joy "leaks", how to refill our joy tank, and the three importance points of convergence about joy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is the second of two very special episodes that we’re doing in back-to-back weeks instead of our usual bi-weekly schedule. This episode features the message I preached in January 2024, on the day our church honored Shelley and me for our 31 years of serving the church on staff. In this message, I talked about what we’re doing next, including why God has called us to the ministry of Helping Small Churches Thrive. It includes some of the key points we teach to Small Church Pastors, like: The Theory of the Long Tail The Grasshopper Myth The Pastoral Prime Mandate and more.  It also includes how people can support us in this new era of ministry. We will no longer be receiving a salary from the church, but we’re raising all our own funds to be missionaries to the small churches in need. But the churches that need the help the most can afford it the least. To become a financial supporter, please visit https://karlvaters.com/support/. The message ends with one of the most touching stories I’ve ever heard about a Small Church Pastor who, like so many others, is one of the unsung heroes of the faith. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is the first of two very special episodes that we’re doing in back-to-back weeks, instead of our usual bi-weekly schedule. In January 2024, Karl and Shelley Vaters were honored by their home church as they ended 31 years on the pastoral staff—25 years as lead pastor, six years as teaching pastor. This, and the next episode of The Church Lobby are taken from that Sunday service. This episode features an on-stage interview in which Gary Garcia (the current lead pastor), asks Karl about their time at Cornerstone. It’s a helpful look at the value of longevity for the pastor and the church and some insights into how they were able to navigate a healthy pastoral transition. Be sure to stick around after the interview for some of Karl's important takeways for people in ministry. You can watch the entire service on the CornerstoneFV YouTube channel, here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A little over a year ago, A.I. came into our lives in a big way. Suddenly, it seemed to be everywhere. Karl Vaters talks with Jason Moore about what A.I. is, why it came into our lives so suddenly, and what its strengths and dangers are.  Then they spend the bulk of this slightly longer-than-usual episode with Jason physically walking us through using A.I. in real time, showing it to us on his computer screen. This is a great episode to watch on our YouTube Channel, but we also describe everything verbally, so you’ll get all the key information if you’re listening to audio only. Links From This Episode: This podcast episode on YouTube Bard.Google.com Chat GPT: Chat.Openai.com Claud.ai Magai.co Elevenlabs.io Email: Mail@MidnightoilProductions.com https://www.facebook.com/midnightoilproductions/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Everyone has an opinion about live streaming, pro or con. As I sift through it, I only want to give a platform to the most helpful, thoughtful voices, and Tim Fox is one of them. In this podcast, we talk about the content of a Facebook post Tim wrote that challenged the reasons most churches live stream their services, while offering some thoughtful alternatives. Tim is not anti tech, but he is good at asking deeper questions about what we’re doing and why we’re doing it. He offers eight points, all of which are thoughtful, including two that really caught my attention. And all four of his alternatives are helpful. Tim is a denominational leader in Georgia who spent several years leading a small church into a healthy turnaround. Also, this episode marks a change in the way I close podcasts. From this point on, if I have closing words after the interview (and I may not always) it will be to add something new to the conversation, not just to give a summation of it. And that’s what I do at the end of this episode, so stick around for my additional thoughts. Links From This Episode: Tim's Original Facebook post TheRethinkingLeader.com gloo ChurchTrac TextInChurch Bonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our YouTube channel) Creating A Digital Disciple-making Strategy, with Tim Fox Ask better questions. This is the essence of Tim Fox’s approach to ministry and his advice for us. In this bonus content, Tim talks to us about how to think better about how we engage people online as a lead-in and as supplemental to our in-person service, not as an alternative to it.   To get the link for the bonus chat, subscribe to the free weekly newsletter at KarlVaters.com/Subscribe or become a monthly supporter at KarlVaters.com/Support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Pastors need to read, not just for information, but for formation. Austin Carty and Karl Vaters cover topics like: The importance of reading many types of books, not just works of theology and leadership How reading helps us become more mature, wise, and caring How reading the Bible with a sense of wonder helps embed its truths into our lives How important it is to take reading seriously, not a luxury, or as something I squeeze in around ministry, but as an essential aspect of growing in life, faith, and ministry  Links from this episode: Ministry In A Secular Age, by Andrew Root e-mail: acarty@boulevardbaptist.com Bonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our YouTube channel) How To Become A Pastor-reader (5 Takeaways), with Austin Carty If you’ve had a hard time reading more, check out how Austin and Karl flesh out these following steps to becoming more of a pastor-reader: See reading as a pastoral visit Don’t start by trying to read too much Hold no knowledge or writing in contempt Trust that there is beauty to be found in all sorts of books Try to read as much material off-line as possible. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Just showing up in people’s lives is such an important aspect of life and ministry. Karl Vaters talks with Drew Dyck about why this is so important, as outlined in Drew’s new book, Just Show Up: How Small Acts of Faithfulness Change Everything (A Guide for Exhausted Christians). Including: The value of our physical presence in pastoral ministry The importance of quantity vs quality time How showing up is not the end game, it’s the onramp for healthy life and ministry Links from this episode: Pocket App Website: https://www.drewdyck.com/ Facebook: drew.dyck Instagram: drewndyck X: @drewndyck   Bonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our YouTube channel) The Importance Of Letting Some Things Slide, with Drew Dyck. Drew and Karl talk about how telling people “no” is not as costly as you might expect it to be, how to be more proactive in our schedules, and even how to decide which things to drop and which things to keep. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Burnout is a huge issue among pastors. But did you know there’s a simple (but not simplistic) way to start addressing and reducing burnout? And that your congregation can help you with it? That’s the premise of Karl's conversation with Josh Taylor, based on his book, A Preach Well Church: How Churches Can Stop Burning Out Pastors. Josh and Karl talk about what causes ministry stress, and how to start relieving that stress by doing the two primary tasks pastors are called to do – preaching and prayer. They also talk about: How good stewardship of a pastor’s time and energy should not be measured by what they do, but by what they focus on – prayer and preaching That focusing on prayer and preaching does not – and should never – mean neglecting the other hands-on aspects of pastoral care That planning and prioritizing our sermon prep time doesn’t just help us be better preachers, but it reduces the urgency, allowing us to be better caregiving pastor as well and more Links from this episode: ChatGPT YouVersion Bible App BreezeCHMS Preachwell.com Facebook - Joshoutloud   Bonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our YouTube channel) How Prayer Helps Reduce Ministry Stress (with Josh Taylor) While stress reduction is not the main reason for prayer, it is a wonderful, often under-appreciated side effect in three ways: It reminds us we are not alone It’s not just about getting things from God, but about giving things to him It gives us strength to handle criticism Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There are so many books about how to turn a lifeless church around. Most concentrate on the pastor’s role. But what about the role of the congregation members? In small churches, this is especially important. Karl Vaters talks with Bud Brown about how to help the congregation become agents of life and hope in a dying church through the power of prayer, from the content of the book, Lifeless to New Life: Biblical prayers to resurrect the lifeless church. The importance of praying the evangelistic prayers of the New Testament Preparing the soil to receive a fresh vision How to help a congregation embrace deep transition, not just surface change Links from this episode: https://www.turnaroundpastor.com/ Podcast, The Genius of Thomas Sowell - https://www.buzzsprout.com/1826734  email - bud@budbrown.net Bonus Content The 8 Prayers We Need For Church Revitalization, with Bud Brown There are eight specific types of prayers that the New Testament tells us to pray. In this bonus content, Karl Vaters talks with Lavern E. “Bud” Brown about each of those prayer types, from his recent book, Lifeless to New Life: Biblical prayers to resurrect the lifeless church, including what those prayers are, why they matter, and how they apply in church turnarounds. To get the link for the bonus chat, subscribe to the free weekly newsletter at KarlVaters.com/Subscribe or become a monthly supporter at KarlVaters.com/Support. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In a recent survey, 80 percent of respondents said "yes" to the question, “since serving on a church board, do you feel your spiritual life has declined?” Why is this happening, and what can be done about it? In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with Dave Beckwith about How to Turn Your Board Meetings Into God Meetings, including How our current corporate style of board meetings isn’t just unbiblical, it’s causing great harm to boards, pastors and the churches they serve How to shift to a more biblical model How to choose church leaders in a more biblical way Advice about the best board sizes and term limits   Links from this Episode: Book - Washed and Waiting Standing Stone Ministry Contact - Dave.B@Standingstoneministry.org   Support This Work: Visit the Website Subscribe to weekly Newsletter Contribute financially at KarlVaters.com/support Visit our Youtube Channel Bonus Chat (for supporters and newsletter subscribers only) When God Uses a Drop In Numbers to Redirect Your Efforts, with Dave Beckwith Karl Vaters and Dave Beckwith talk about issues related to church size, based on a story that Dave tells in his book, and that Karl cites in his new book, De-sizing the Church (coming April 2, 2024). Specifically we ask, what happens when a drop in attendance numbers isn’t loss, but simply a redirection?  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

With people attending church less frequently now, you average Sunday attendance represents a smaller percent of your regulars than ever befofe. And it affects how we pastor them and what they expect of the church in ways we may not realize. Karl Vaters talks about this with Chad Brooks, a co-vocational pastor, blogger at RevChadBrooks.com, and the host of the Productive Pastor podcast, about: Why church size matters— but not in the way you think it does How to determine how many people you’re actually pastoring, since it’s changed a lot in the last couple years Why the main weekend service may no longer be the wide end of your church funnel, anymore   Links: Karl’s Twitter feed with Chad’s comments RevChadBrooks.com What The Drop In Attendance Frequency Means For Pastors Declaring Church Size (and why it matters) No Silver Bullets (book) https://www.ihelppastorsgetjobs.com/ Ryan Burge The Great DeChurching (book) https://substack.com/ Ian Harber on Substack @revchadbrooks   Support This Work: Visit the Website Subscribe to weekly Newsletter Contribute financially at KarlVaters.com/support Visit our Youtube Channel Bonus Content The Moving Target of Small, Medium, and Large Churches — And Why It Matters Karl Vaters talks with Chad Brooks about three different ways of deciding whether your church is small, medium, or big, including some helpful information that Chad found from actually interviewing church members about it. This is important to know because if one person thinks 100 is small, another thinks 100 is medium, and a third person thinks 100 is big, it will change what they do, how they learn, and what leadership principles they follow. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this solo episode, Karl Vaters shares 22 lessons he learned on his recent sabbatical that will help you if you’re considering one yourself. Including: How long it should be How to prepare for it What to expect, emotionally and mentally How to fade in and fade out of it slowly and more   BONUS MATERIAL (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our Youtube channel) How We Found Great Churches On Our Sabbatical In the supplement to this episode, Karl Vaters dives a little deeper into his experiences attending other churches on sabbatical, including: Go with a friend you trust Check out different Christian traditions Go whether you feel like it or not For a sabbatical coach, go to SeanNemecek.com. Support This Work: Visit the Website Subscribe to weekly Newsletter Contribute financially at KarlVaters.com/support Visit our Youtube Channel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Karl Vaters talks with Brady Shearer, summarizing a report about church trends and church size. Karl and Brady talk about those stats and what they mean for small church ministry, including: How stats don’t tell you a church’s story, but they can help you see things you might not otherwise pay attention to Good news about racial, age and ethnic diversity in churches over the last 20 years Plus, Brady uses his technical skills from his work with Pro Church Tools, to help churches navigate the biggest time of change in the last 500 years, including huge recent shifts in the way social media promotes content that can be a big benefit to your church. Links: Brady’s original thread on Twitter Brady’s thread content for those not on Twitter The Faith Communities Today report Pro Church Tools YouTube page Pro Church Tools podcast Nucleus website https://vectormagic.com/     Bonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our Youtube channel) Vertical Video and Cross-Platform Posting Karl talks with Brady Shearer about some of the very recent changes happening in social media and how content is promoted based on people’s likes, not their relationships. Brady also helps us understand how to use vertical videos better, plus some very practical steps on how to post that content to all social media platforms. To get the link for the bonus chat, subscribe to the free weekly newsletter at KarlVaters.com/Subscribe or become a monthly supporter at KarlVaters.com/Support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Karl Vaters talks with Greg Atkinson, the author of several books, including The Secret Power of Kindness: 10 Keys to Unlocking Your Capacity to Change the World. Greg is probably most well-known as one of the leading church experts on hospitality and First Impressions. In this conversation, Greg talks about his brave choice to end the cycle of abuse he inherited from his family and choose kindness instead. Plus, he answers several important questions, like What is kindness? Why is kindness so powerful? Practical ways to become a kinder person Links from this Episode: The Secret Power of Kindness: 10 Keys to Unlocking Your Capacity to Change the World Subscribe to Greg's Newsletter https://firstimpressionsconference.com/ Gloo.com greg@gregatkinson.com Socials - @gregatkinson Bonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our Youtube channel) Karl and Greg talk about Why is Unity in Such Short Supply in the Church? In this video chat, they address some important trigger issues that Greg writes about in the last chapter of his book, including racism, politics, and more.  To get the link for the bonus chat, subscribe to the free weekly newsletter at KarlVaters.com/Subscribe or become a monthly supporter at KarlVaters.com/Support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Forgiveness may be the most desired, but among the least understood virtues found in scripture, and in life.  Karl Vaters talks with Dr. Bruce & Toni Hebel, co-authors of Forgiving Forward: Unleashing the Forgiveness Revolution. In this episode we talk about The Power of Forgiveness, including a lot of ideas that may feel counterintuitive to you, so lean in and hear the biblical foundation they’re building on. It may even reframe this entire issue for you. They also provide answers to questions such as: Why is forgiveness so hard to do? What are some of the dangers of unforgiveness? What are some of the blessings of forgiveness? What if someone is having a hard time forgiving? Links From This Episode: AbidingLife.com ForgivingForward.com   Bonus chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our Youtube channel) The 7 Protocols of Forgiveness with Dr. Bruce & Toni Hebel The authors of Forgiving Forward: Unleashing the Forgiveness Revolution talk with Karl Vaters about the ingredients that go into forgiveness from a biblical standpoint. This is exclusive content for sponsors and subscribers at KarlVaters.com. To get the link for the bonus chat, subscribe to the free weekly newsletter at KarlVaters.com/Subscribe or become a monthly supporter at KarlVaters.com/Support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices